Emory University’s Program Coordinator, Tsondue Samphel, joins this week’s The Loc Show to share how translation is helping him run an international (and free!) educational program, SEE Learning. This is a stand out episode not only because Tsondue discloses what meeting His Holiness the Dalai Lama has been like (on several occasions), but the conversation elevates to touch upon creating real meaning in life for future generations: something we can all get behind during these divisive times. SEE Learning is an academic collaboration between Emory University and His Holiness the Dalai Lama that aims to give students (K-12) the necessary tools to develop emotionally, socially, and ethically. SEE provides programming that helps children cultivate the skills necessary to have a meaningful life and to help young people flourish and improve their overall well being.
Join us as Tsondue shares the vision of SEE, his experiences coming to the U.S., and how he uses translation to knit cultures together by serving over 30 countries.
On this episode you’ll learn:
- Tsondue’s tale of arriving at Emory University’s Center of Contemplative Sciences and Compassion-based Ethics, experiencing culture shock as the only Tibetan person, and earning his BS in Physics
- How Tsondue settled into his role as an International Program Coordinator for the SEE Learning division
- How the Emory University community softened Tsondue’s landing in the U.S. from India
- About the Dalai Lama’s role in the curriculum and the goals of the program as a whole
- About the free SEE 101 Online training course available on Emory’s site that is accessible in over 145 countries
Jump into the hot topics!
[3:08] Tsondue on his role at Emory as an International Program Coordinator for SEE Learning
[5:07] The challenges Tsondue faced when he moved from India to the U.S. for his schooling and how he managed the massive cultural and emotional shifts
[7:33] Background on the SEE Learning program and how translation plays a part of (social and emotional ethical learning is the program name)
[10:58] Tsondue on his numerous run-ins with His Holiness the Dalai Lama, a proponent for pushing the need for holistic education
[15:55] What responsibilities Tsondue had on his plate when he first joined the program about two years ago
[17:36] Landscape of the content that requires translation to over 30 locales
[21:55] How Tsondue and Smartling began working together
[22:35] Different types of content within the SEE program
[28:50] The translation process for the site and for SEE 101 program materials
[30:54] Challenges Tsondue has had to overcome when translating content into different languages
[34:48] How the team manages elements of localization
[44:23] What Tsondue is most excited for
Full Transcript that almost certainly has typos (forgive us!)
Announcer: You're listening to The Loc Show, presented by Smartling.
Adrian Cohn: Hello, everybody, and welcome back to The Loc Show. I'm your host, Adrian Cohn with Smartling. And today, I'm really excited about our guest, Tsondue Samphel. Tsondue is over at Emory University and his story is just really cool. This episode actually is going to be totally different from ones that you've heard before, because we're actually going to learn a lot about a course that Emory University has made available to people around the world. And the endorsements that this course has are quite amazing. The course is all about compassion. And I think compassion is a cool topic for localization and translation, because in order to really be successful in this space, I think you have to be really compassionate. So what I will challenge you to do as you listen to this episode is think about all of the various areas of the translation and localization industry, and think about who and where you can be the most compassionate. Let me say it in another way. Where can you express the most amount of compassion for people who are in this industry? I wonder if compassion would make the localization industry a stronger community. Let's dive into the episode with Tsondue. I hope you like. Hi, Tsondue. Welcome to The Loc Show.
Tsondue Samphel: Thank you. Good morning, Adrian.
Adrian Cohn: Good morning. How has everything been going with you?
Tsondue Samphel: Everything is going pretty well. The season has changed, and it's really beautiful. The weather has cooled down a bit. It's really cool and crisp outside.
Adrian Cohn: Is this your favorite season? Or do you prefer the winter or the summer, or the spring?
Tsondue Samphel: I definitely prefer fall, not winter. I'm not a cold person. But spring is also good. A season of fresh rejuvenation, but fall is the season of crops and harvest and abundance. So it's also nice.
Adrian Cohn: I love that.
Tsondue Samphel: The color as well.
Adrian Cohn: That is an amazing way to think about the seasons. When I think of the seasons, I think of how much daylight do I have? I'm a creature of the day. I'm known for turning into a pumpkin at the dinner table. It's a special quality of mine. I could be taking a walk and heading to dinner with you, and then when we're at dinner, I get sleepy. I like to eat early, I like to go to bed early, and I like to wake up early.
Tsondue Samphel: Rather, then the days are getting shorter.
Adrian Cohn: This is a tough time of year for me. Even though the-
Tsondue Samphel: I'll be in the north, right? Yeah, you're based in New York, so I think the days have become short pretty quickly.
Adrian Cohn: It's October 1st Today. The sun sets around 6:30, and I think it's rising around maybe 6:30 right now as well. We probably have 12 hours of sunlight, but when daylight saving approaches in three weeks or four weeks, it's going to be at that time of year, the amount of sunlight is compressed to nine or 10 hours, I think. And it's really strange because at four o'clock, you'll look out the window and it's dark.
Tsondue Samphel: Right.
Adrian Cohn: But I know that we have listeners who are in Europe, and they're further north than we are in New York, further north than you are in Atlanta. And they have even shorter days. So I can't complain. I just got to keep on chugging along. The great thing, though, is midway through winter or sometime in December, it starts to get light again. And that's the best. I like when it starts to get light again.
Tsondue Samphel: Turning around.
Adrian Cohn: Turning around. So tell me a little bit about yourself. You're over at Emory University. How did you find yourself at Emory? And tell us a little bit about your background.
Tsondue Samphel: Currently, I'm working at Emory for the Center of Contemplative Science and Compassion-Based Ethics. I am one of the international program coordinators for one of the divisions of the center called SEE Learning, Social, Emotional and Ethical Learning. But before that, I was a senior interpreter, I still am for a program called Emory-Tibet Science Initiative. It's also a program based out of Emory University. It's a science education program. We develop science curriculum and enroll the curriculum for the Tibetan monastics in India. But before I joined Emory as a staff, I did my undergrad at Emory, majoring in physics. And before that, I was studying at an institute in India called the Institute of Buddhist Dialectics where I studied Buddhist philosophy, Buddhist logic and epistemology. I was born in India. I am a Tibetan, born and raised in India. I moved to the US to study at Emory, and then I was invited to join this new program that Emory created the year I graduated Emory-Tibet Science Initiative. And since then, I've been working at Emory.
Adrian Cohn: What was it like for you to move from India to the Americas, to go to university?
Tsondue Samphel: It was a huge change for me. The first year was really a challenging year. Everything was new. At the time, there weren't many Tibetans in Atlanta, and I was the only Tibetan student at Emory University.
Adrian Cohn: Wow.
Tsondue Samphel: So the first year was quite challenging. I mean, emotionally. But then I settled down. And after that, I was majoring in physics, so always studying, studying. But since then, I've been good.
Adrian Cohn: I think Emory is a beautiful place. I went to Rollins College, which is in a similar cohort as Emory. I remember everyone at the admissions office was always talking about how Emory was a peer organization that we were always trying to benchmark ourselves against. It's a beautiful place that you live in and work on a daily basis.
Tsondue Samphel: Yes, yes. Emory, it has of course, a beautiful campus, but then the environment, the community, a very strong sense of community. There's always support from the community. Even in the first year when I was having a tough time, I had so much support from the program that I was in, and the program through which I came to Emory as an exchange student. It's a beautiful community, strong, very well bonded, and I feel really fortunate to be part of this community.
Adrian Cohn: And your role is international program coordinator?
Tsondue Samphel: Yes.
Adrian Cohn: Let's talk a little bit about the online program that you introduced a few moments ago. Remind us again, what is the program for? And how and why is language translation important for this program?
Tsondue Samphel: The program is called Social, Emotional and Ethical Learning. In short, we call it SEE Learning. It is an international program to teach young children, K through 12 children students to cultivate skills that are necessary for us to have a meaningful life, for us to flourish and for us to cultivate our well-being. So as the name indicates, it's a program that help students develop and cultivate their emotional skills, their social skills and their ethical skills. It is an international program. Right now, the program is implemented in almost 30 countries. So therefore, there is the need for translation. It's a free program that runs out of Emory University. And the SEE Learning team at Emory provides support to our affiliates in those 30 countries. The translation is needed because right from the beginning, when we developed the program, when we developed the framework and when we developed the curriculum, of course, the framework and the curriculum were initially developed in English. But then the program was meant to be a global program, an international program. So, right from the beginning, we wanted to translate all the published materials into the different languages. We had our launch in April 2019, and the launch happened in New Delhi. And the launch was inaugurated by His Holiness the Dalai Lama. At that launch, we had about more than 1,000 educators from 37 different countries. We launched the program with a set of materials such as the framework and the curriculum, and the framework had been translated into, I think 12 languages prior from the launch.
Adrian Cohn: Hold on a second, we have to go back. Were you at the launch in India?
Tsondue Samphel: Yes.
Adrian Cohn: So did you meet the Dalai Lama?
Tsondue Samphel: Yes, yes.
Adrian Cohn: Was that your first time meeting him? Or have you ...
Tsondue Samphel: It was not my first time. I had met him a number of times before that through the other program, the Emory-Tibet Science Initiative. Teaching science to the Tibetan monastic communities, had been a long time His Holiness' vision. And Emory collaborated with an institution in India called the Library of Tibetan Works and Archives, and together formed this initiative, Emory-Tibet Science Initiative. And the faculty at Emory, they developed the curriculum, but we sought advice from His Holiness regarding what subjects to choose and so on. I had been in many of those meetings, and I had met and blessed by His Holiness on a number of occasions.
Adrian Cohn: The things you will hear on The Loc Show. How cool is that? That's one way to bring a new concept to people around the world, is to incorporate the thoughts and the ideals of the Dalai Lama. That's an amazing story right there.
Tsondue Samphel: His Holiness has been promoting the need for holistic education, education of not only mind, but also heart. His Holiness understands that cultivation of inner values, cultivation of heart through the promotion of values like compassion, forgiveness, understanding, empathy and so on, these are a necessary condition for humans to flourish. Therefore, he sees the lack of focus on cultivating these values in the present education system. So he has been promoting the idea of providing a holistic education, the education of heart and mind for many decades now. And his call to cultivate or develop a curriculum to teach these values was accepted by Emory University. And then this collaboration between Emory and His Holiness resulted in the program called SEE Learning.
Adrian Cohn: Wow. You must feel really good to be part of this.
Tsondue Samphel: Oh, I feel so fortunate, so blessed to be part of this. All my colleagues in this program, our SEE Learning team here at Emory, we are a small group of nine people, but then we are a part of this larger center call the Center for Contemplative Science and Compassion-Based Ethics. And the center has three main initiatives or I would say four main programs, one of which is the SEE Learning, and then we have a program called CBCT. That's Cognitively-Based Compassion Training. And then, of course, ETSI, the Emery-Tibet Science Initiative. And then a program called University Program where we develop curriculum for the university level students. So these are the four programs right now functioning under the center, and all of these programs focus on developing or cultivating inner values.
Adrian Cohn: You joined this program about two years ago, a little less than two years ago?
Tsondue Samphel: Right.
Adrian Cohn: Tell us a little bit about what you were tasked with doing when you joined the program.
Tsondue Samphel: I joined this program as an international program coordinator. Right when I joined Emory, the SEE Learning already has made connections in many different countries. So one of my primary roles was to coordinate the efforts of implementing SEE Learning program in different countries, and communicate with them and find ways of supporting our affiliates in different countries in enrolling and implementing this program.
Adrian Cohn: So, part of that process was inclusive of language translation. You shared with me before that, that was evident before you even started, or before this program started that it would have to be translated in order for it to be operational around the world. What were some of the challenges with translate ... well, actually, maybe give us an idea. What is the landscape of the content that you have to translate? And how did that go? How did you get this product launched in 30 markets?
Tsondue Samphel: Well, so the program was, right from the beginning, meant to be an international program. That is His Holiness' vision, His Holiness the Dalai Lama's vision, to provide this secular ethical education to children everywhere throughout the world. Therefore, with that vision, it becomes clear that this program has to spread throughout the world. So, the first step that we took was to translate our publications, the framework of the program. We call it SEE Learning Companion. It's a beautiful, well-written, wonderful book, and this was translated into many languages. And based on this framework, we have developed curriculums for the early elementary kids. Right now, we have finished developing three curriculums. One is for the early elementary children, that's age, I think five through seven, and then we have laid elementary and then middle school curriculum. We are now developing high school curriculum. And all these curriculum are translated into many different languages. This is a free program, we don't charge for this program. And as the word spread about this program, we communicated from different parts of the world. As I mentioned earlier, we have, right now, the program in 30 countries. We have formed affiliations with various schools, institutions, organizations, and we support the efforts by our affiliates. But then there's always this issue of language. There are always issue of different culture, so the need for translating the materials into different languages, and the need for different regions to adapt the program to the regionals needs, cultural needs, and maybe educational needs is felt right from the beginning. So we work with our affiliates in translating our published materials, companion and the curriculum. But then, the translating material itself is not enough for us to reach every corner of this world. So, therefore, we have developed an online program called SEE 101. It's an online training course, a free training course. This is on our website, and this has been accessed by more than 13,000 people from 145 countries, more than 145 countries. But right now, SEE 101 exists only in English. So, for the educators who don't speak English, of course, we need to provide that online course through other languages. Therefore, we contacted Smartling, a company that's known for localization and translation services. And currently, the SEE 101 and the SEE Learning website is being translated into multiple languages.
Adrian Cohn: It's such an exciting project for us to work on. Tell us a little bit about the different types of content that are within the program.
Tsondue Samphel: Of course, one element or one important component of the program, of course, is the development of the curriculum and the framework. And this has been done to a certain extent. We're working on high school curriculum and after that, we will develop something for the parents. And then we will develop curriculum for university level students. That's an important component of this program. Another component of this program is to train educators to implement the program, and we have different modules, one of which is SEE 101. That is the online orientation that we give to educators. We also have in-person workshop that our team at Emory provides. Before the pandemic started, our team had been traveling to different countries to provide this in-person workshop. And then we also have a facilitator training program, a certified facilitator training program. And that is for educators as well as other people who are involved in education, who want to facilitate and train other educators. This is a nine-month program. It's done online, and this is also a free program. So a nine-month online course that is given to interested people, to become a facilitator and train other educators. We are doing this to scale the program because the team at Emory is really small. We're only nine people, and even though we travel throughout the year, there's so much that we could do. So we want to train people from different countries to become facilitators, so that they can provide the training in their regions, in local languages, understanding the local cultural needs and so on. That's a program that's going on. And then another component is what we call the level two facilitator training program. We haven't started that yet. We are still developing the program, but with the level two facilitator program, we want to train, facilitate people who could train other educators or other people to become facilitators, level one facilitators. So these are some of the programs that we have right now.
Adrian Cohn: So the programs, they have text-based learnings, they have video-based learnings. Tell us a little bit about how the content is compiled. You're in the process of translating it, and some of it is done, I presume? So, what is the content like?
Tsondue Samphel: You mean for the SEE 101?
Adrian Cohn: Yeah.
Tsondue Samphel: SEE 101, it's an online orientation course. It's six to seven hours of a training course.
Adrian Cohn: And it's video or text, or both?
Tsondue Samphel: Yeah, it's video. But then, we also provide the text along with it. So the companion and part of the curriculum. Once the SEE 101 is completed, then we provide the whole curriculum to the educator. This is an orientation course, so therefore, we provide some of the important concepts from the framework companion. We introduce the pedagogical model that we use. In SEE Learning, the pedagogical model that we use is a sort of constructivist pedagogy. It also contains the essential sort of what we call the nine components. It introduces the educators to some of the enduring capabilities that we're going to cultivate in that. So this SEE 101, it's an orientation course. Therefore, it's an everyday edit that introduces educators to the philosophy and the pedagogical model, and some learning experiences, some activities that the educators will do to cultivate these values.
Adrian Cohn: What about the translation process? What's that been like for you?
Tsondue Samphel: Right now, there are two translation projects that are going on. One is the translation project working on the materials, and we are working with the affiliates to accomplish that. The other one is the translation of our website and the SEE 101 that we're working with Smartling to accomplish. And it has been going on really well. The website and the contents, including SEE 101 has been translated into several languages. One is the Latin-Spanish. It's been translated into German, Ukrainian, Czech. And Smartling is undertaking this project in other languages as well, including Portuguese, Korean, European, Spanish, Catalan, and we are going to add some other languages, French, Italian, Hindi, Tibetan and Chinese.
Adrian Cohn: That's a lot of languages that have to be supported. And the content type, the educational material is rather unique content on learning ethical education. It sounds really interesting to me. I might want to take this one day when it's available for people of my age. But tell me a little bit about some of the challenges that you guys have run into in translating content of this nature.
Tsondue Samphel: The framework or the book containing the framework is called the companion. This is very well-written, and I think it doesn't have any specific cultural perspective so to speak. It's global in nature. It has brought together a number of innovative educational programs. Yeah. So I don't see any challenges as far as localization and so on are concerned to translate this. But the curriculum, the early elementary, late elementary and middle school curriculum, these curriculum are developed based on the educational system in the US. We have a lot of input from educators in the US. So, the way the curriculum is structured and so on, might not exactly fit in a different educational system. Therefore, there is of course, a need to adapt those. And this of course, is a big challenge. Right now, our approach is that we will translate all the curriculum as it is in different languages. We will not start by adapting and localizing the curriculum into different regions and different cultures. Initially, we will just translate the curriculum as it is. But then we see the need, and of course, understand the need to adapt those. For instance, in the curriculum, some of the languages that are used are language from this educational system, the educational system in the US. And that language may not be the type of language that is used in other systems. So, these are some of the challenges that we face. And then because this is a new educational program, there are of course, new concepts, new ways of thinkings and so on. And these also when translated into different languages, the other languages may not have the equivalent terms and vocabulary for many of these concepts and ideas. Therefore, people have to come up with new ways of expressing these concepts. So, there's-
Adrian Cohn: How are you managing that process? Did you come up with a definition of terms that may not work in other markets? Or as the content is being translated, are you getting feedback from partners or from translators to say this doesn't work in the Czech Republic or whatever?
Tsondue Samphel: Right. Right, right. In order to ease the process, we have developed a glossary for what we think are unique SEE Learning terms, and technical terms that are used in our companion and of course, our curriculum. So, we have created a glossary. And then of course, we receive feedback from our affiliates and translators. And there are conceptual issues as well. For instance, compassion is such an important value that we want to cultivate in the SEE Learning program. Compassion, in fact, is seen as the foundation of all the ethical behavior, all the ethical behavior that we want to cultivate. But compassion is understood differently in different culture. So, the way we understand compassion may not be exactly how another culture may understand it. For instance, in Latin America, cultures in Latin America, they understand compassion as closer to pity. And this is not how we understand compassion in SEE Learning. In SEE Learning, compassion is understood as this aspiration to see others free of suffering. This is an aspiration in order to wish others to be free of pain and problem and so on. So it's such a positive emotion. It has this uplifting quality to it. It's not at all seen as pity. But in another culture, this is understood as pity. Therefore, we have this back and forth about how to go about understanding the concept of compassion, whether we should use this word or come up with a different word, and so on. So there's, of course, back and forth with the translators. And the translators, they work with the educators. They work with the practitioners, because SEE Learning has a lot of contemplative practices in it, such as cultivating attention, cultivating mindfulness or attention, and calculating compassion and so on. So, these translators work with teachers, they work with other professionals, psychologists and so on to come up with the right or the accurate translation for these different concepts and terms.
Adrian Cohn: That's got to be super challenging at times, because this is content that can't be mistakenly translated. It's important for all content to be translated well, but in this particular case, it's highly sophisticated content. It's education material that is really interesting.
Tsondue Samphel: Yes. A lot of new concepts. And of course, SEE Learning, it's not a totally new program. It has adapted and taken from many other educational programs. Of course, it has taken a lot from social, emotional learning. In fact, Dr. Daniel Goleman, calls SEE Learning the SEL 2.0, because it has a lot of elements from the SEL program. It has also taken concepts and practices from other educational programs such as character education, peace education. We also have in our curriculum, a chapter on cultivating resiliency, and that is taken from Trauma Resiliency Model developed by Elaine Miller-Karas and others. So it's a combination of many programs. But then SEE Learning also has unique elements such as cultivation of attention, of course, cultivation of compassion, and then also cultivation of the systems thinking, which is a very important element of the SEE Learning program. Thinking about systems, thinking about the entire humanity as one big interconnected and interdependent system, and understanding everyone as one big human family. So the systems thinking and the concept of interdependence has been added into the SEE Learning program. SEE Learning has many unique features, distinctive features, but also it has taken from different educational programs. Therefore, when a translator engages in the material, he or she has to be aware of all these diverse programs. And each program may be rooted in a specific philosophy, a concept, so the translators need to be aware of those. Now with Smartling, one way to ensure accuracy of the translation, especially of the SEE 101 is by providing them a SEE Learning specific glossary to the Smartling translators. We also have provided style guides to each language. These are the assets that we provide the Smartling translators. And then once the translation is done, our translators will review the material and then finalize them.
Adrian Cohn: So you have country partners who review the content?
Tsondue Samphel: Yes. Yes, yes.
Adrian Cohn: All right.
Tsondue Samphel: So these are ways that we have taken to ensure accuracy, consistency among the translations.
Adrian Cohn: Wow. Well, we're so excited to see how this program takes off for you and your colleagues at Emory.
Tsondue Samphel: Thank you. We received requests from our affiliates to provide some of these contents in different languages, particularly SEE 101, which is the orientation and training course. And we definitely want to do that, because that's the only way that we can reach to hundreds of thousands of educators around the world. So Smartling, through its translation, has been helping our program spread to all these different parts of the world.
Adrian Cohn: Well, that's what we're here to do. We're here to help you and all of our customers to reach your worldwide audience. And we're just so privileged to be part of that process.
Tsondue Samphel: Thank you. Thank you so much. We really appreciate. We are really excited to launch our own website in different languages. I'm not exactly sure when that will happen, but hopefully in a month or so, we can start launching our website in these different languages.
Adrian Cohn: Fantastic. Well, thank you so much, Tsondue, for telling us your story and the story of Emory, and this fantastic program that you and your colleagues have launched worldwide.
Tsondue Samphel: Well, thank you. I forgot to thank you for inviting us on this show. Smartling has a very wide reach. It has clients everywhere, and this is such a wonderful opportunity for us to reach out to a group of audience that may not be aware of our program. Of course, ours is an education program and we reach out to different educational institutions and so on, but Smartling on this show, I'm sure has created a niche that is not completely overlapping our audience. So through this program, I'm sure our program, at least will be introduced to a lot of new people. We are very thankful for that. And we want as many people as possible to know about this free education program that is run out of Emory. We want to let people know that there is this free education that they can use to develop educators themselves, as well as children in cultivating what His Holiness the Dalai Lama calls, basic human values, values such as compassion, love, forgiveness, understanding and so on.
Adrian Cohn: Well, maybe as we wrap up the episode, you could take us out. What is the number one most important teaching or lesson that you've learned from this program?
Tsondue Samphel: From the SEE Learning program?
Adrian Cohn: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Tsondue Samphel: That compassion is a very valuable and beneficial quality to have, that will add to your well-being, well-being of yourself and others, that the whole humanity can be seen as a part of your family. The whole humanity is a big family, and we depend on others. As Martin Luther King says, "Before we finish our breakfast, we have depended on half of the world." The coffee that we drink came from Latin America, the wheat that made the bread came from, I don't know, India or China, and I don't know, the jam or the honey ... So all these products, they are not locally made. They came from so many different countries. And before we finish our breakfast, we have depended on half the people around the world. This is such a powerful concept, especially in developing this connection with others. Our society right now suffers from loneliness and depression, and many of these emotional problems. And partly because we fail to see this reality, the reality that we depend on others, we rely on others, that our welfare is dependent on others. The more we are able to cultivate this perspective, and the more we are able to connect with others, and the more we feel one with the whole humanity, and as such you start to see that others' welfare is your own welfare. And once you have cultivated this perspective, then compassion comes naturally. Compassion is such a powerful emotion. It gives you strength, it gives you confidence. It opens you up to the entire world. So these are some of the things that I have learned from this program, and I'm still learning.
Adrian Cohn: Thank you for sharing. And thank you for being such a great guest on The Loc Show, Tsondue. Thanks so much.
Tsondue Samphel: Thank you. Thank you so much, Adrian, for this opportunity.
Adrian Cohn: Thank you so much, Tsondue, for being an amazing guest on The Loc Show. I really liked that quote that you shared from Martin Luther King, "Before you finish eating breakfast in the morning, you've depended on more than half of the world." But I just can't help but think of how in this space, before I finish breakfast, how many translators have done the work for our customers. How many colleagues of mine or of yours, the listeners of yours in Europe or in Asia have done the work before you wake up in the morning? Translation and localization is an amazing industry because of its global nature, and the goal that we have is to help you communicate and connect with customers anywhere today. This episode means a lot to me because it reminds me of the importance of being compassionate for other people who work alongside you in the industry, and it reminds me of the great quality of empathy. I hope that this episode was meaningful for you as well. If you loved the episode, please leave us a five star review and share it on social media. That's how we're able to attract amazing guests like Tsondue and the others that you've heard on this show. We've got some amazing guests coming up. Thank you so much for listening, and I'll see you next week.